Hey guys, you might be able to help. I'm just "finishing" (does that *ever* really happen?) a '32 hiboy ... dropped I-beam, single transverse leaf setup, and find the steering is a bit too hard for my tastes. Anything I can do?

I've got toe-in at 1/8", camber at 6 degrees, a 14" steering wheel, 6" long steering arm.

Thanks for any help you can give.

Very nice ride, I love the color. You have some pretty wide meats on the front. Maybe a larger steering wheel? Or an extra bowl of wheaties in the morning may help. Remember this is a Hot Rod not a SUV. But it sure looks COOL. Regards, HonestFrank
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"VEO DINDICE"

Try swappin' the steering box or play with it a little, may be a little too tight...it's those little adjustments that can make a world of difference!

Its a long shot...may help a little!

Slammin
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Hold your ears folks...ITS SHOWTIME!!!

What kind of steering gear you runnin?

Rick
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awsum34

Remember the only dumb question is the one you don't ask.

It's cross-steering arrangement using a Vega aftermarket box.

I have to agree with 37NASH here on the caster at 6? Way too much and I don't know how you get it there?

MY advice is 1-2 degrees caster (try it at zero and see if it is too wandering...the more you put in the harder it will get) and 1/16 inch toe-in. Many non-power steering cars have zero caster in them. The tri-year chevrolets is a perfect example and they had NO caster adjustment per se. The HOT ROD annual of 99 had a performance article in it that featured chassis alignment. Their school of thought is much the same as mine.......only to add a -1/4 to -1/2 camber.

Just my 2 sense!
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Steve Jack
SOUTHEASTERN GOODGUYS REP

HOTRODSRJ i dont like to sound like a wise guy but the 55-57 chevy you could put all the camber or castor you wanted in the world.It has and upper shaft that is shimmed much like GM did all the way up to the late 80's to 90's(anything with out front struts) As far as Hot Rod mag its great for the pix's but is not so strong on truthfull info(most true builders get a good laugh when they read some of the stuff).I find most times the articles to be full of rookie mistakes and misinfo(not knocking them to bad as they are not the only ones) Take what you read with a grain of salt and go check it with some one you can trust.Just my .05 worth Phat
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If you have to trailer it, leave it home!

37NASH......I don't want to be the smart guy either, so I will quote from the factory alignment spec GMdoc 3006.13 rev j dated origial 5/55/54 latest rev 5/15/57. It states, "maximum caster deflection is neg 2 degree to positive 1/2 degree TYPICAL/allowable". This was not only an pre-aligment check but a quality check to see that the set-up was correct. Chevrolet never intended for positive caster to be put into these cars at all because it would be hard to steer. All the settings left the factory with -1/4 degree caster according to their own documents. And if you would be so kind to turn to page 307 of the Big Red Book of Classic Chevrolet's and ponder the tech tip in the far right hand corner at the bottom with the custom upper A arms for tri years. It states that it gives an additional POSITIVE 5 degrees of caster. I know about these.......because we design and make them for them......it's our product, just addressing this problem.

To state things simply, I have NEVER heard (and I called my good friend at Classic (call Randy Erwin at 1800-456-1957, he has more expertise on these than anyone else in my opinion....he is their tech on this) as well on this one in case I was off) of any caster adjustment past 1/2 degree. I can't get more than 1/2 on my 57 or my dad's 55 or my buddies 56 or any other one of the hundreds that we have seen or worked on excepting the bent frame ones. I will submit to you that if you are getting this type of positive caster out of your tri-year....your frame has sagged and that's what gives the additional positive adjustment, it wasn't designed this way. It's the only mechanical way this can happen and is a typical problem of these era cars and frames. I know a guy that does nothing else but repair sagging frames on rods and customs and his number one customer is the very heavy tri-year chevys.

Your statement on HOT ROD is shared by many but I don't discount it automatically and find it absurd to that degree! I have seen mistakes in just about every magazine and web site posts that I read (if you get my drift...even my own), but I don't automatically discount it just because of this. While I take everybodies statements with a grain of salt, I mostly go buy educating myself and HOT ROD has some of the best guys in the business. You have insinuated by your comments that they would be "untruthful", meaning they really know the truth and just keep it from us is a little paranoid in my opinion! I have read HOT ROD since 1959 and will give it pretty good grades regardless of contents they are giving. Also, these numbers are ones that have been corroborated by several sources and my own experiences. Now are they perfect for every application....no! But, all of my cars are known for their handling and nary a problem with a tire......yet, my day WILL come.

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Steve Jack
SOUTHEASTERN GOODGUYS REP

I don't know how Tri 5 chevs got into the discussion the picture shows a beam axle 32 and every thing I ever read on them said [more than one source] caster 5 to 7 deg. pos. toe 3/32 to 1/8 toe in, camber 1/2 deg. pos.[ only adjusted by bending axle] I have a 32 beam axle and steers fine, drives straight , good tire wear. I think you should follow 37 nash suggestions and disconect and trouble shoot. you might have something binding.

HOTRODSRJ i think you may have been reading some outdated stuff .Factory alignment specs??? I dont seem to remember radial tires back than,i do remember my 57 belair drove rather poorly when newer.Having built some race cars off this chassis in the 70's and many street cars i have seen no need for your product(it is pretty but i make them myself).I can get over 5 degrees stock.I have been doing so for many years with over 100 55-57 under my belt.I think maybe i have been doing this long before the classic chevy clearing house was around(we call it that cause they really dont make anything just sell other peoples stuff) Either i have over 100 saging frames or you have some really bad gauges LOL Please go look at a tri year frame yourself,you will see how uninformed you are on this subject.I wont quote red books or he said they said as i am a hands on person.When a car leaves my shop it drives better than it came . Do you want to get into bump steer,castor gain,camber gain,roll centers,spring rates ,akerman steering? Some day me and you could have fun at this .I live for it,and also very good at it.I also make my own a-frames a suspension parts so it would be fun to kick some ideas around. As far as Hot Rod i stand by it is the worst,i understand why you would stand behind them after reading your title. But i have no bucks with them sooooo....my statment stands. My other cars are a 56 rag top 57 hardtop 56 delray 55 belair (among asorted other stuff)so i do have a few of my own tri year chevys kickin around.LOL Just to maybe make you think,i can change castor by raising or lowering the rear of the car and its a whole lot more than 1/2 a degree(without touchin shims).so maybe your expert anit so expert LOL Think about it.Please this is good learnin for everbody not bashing,i have only been here for a week or so.Posted with a big grin.
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If you have to trailer it, leave it home!

37NASH....Since you have discounted every resource that I have given, HotROd, Rod and Custom, Chevy hi performance,GM factory specifications (regardless of what type of tires they had...doesn't have to do with anything at that point), Classic Chervrolet and my own experiences, I set out to investigate once more just for the sake of us all being wrong to recalibrate on the subject of tri-year caster. I have been wrong before and looking at problems from another view sometimes produces another result....so I am open to that....you have made me think and that is good. I spent alot of yesterday as you will find out researching this. After all, there is a product application at stake here. We did this before when first making the upper arms several years ago, but I am willing to go back and investigate in case I missed something, and your stated creditials seem pretty good to me....I am willing to listen. I contacted yesterday 6 differing chassis/tri-year builders/guys (that I know from my interface across the fruiten plains of this country thru my Goodguys or other roots) and even one of the period (circa 1955)factory engineers/quality guys from GM that used to advertise in Hemmings (I saved the number when doing my own) for about his "make it original" program, that featured expert markings and help with complete stock restoration of any tri-year car and even up to 1960. His name is Robert Krawsoski and he is now living in Royal Oak, Michigan..or close so he says. Robert has helped over 1500 owners of classic chevrolet folks get it right.....whereas, he was one of the only project engineers left/living that is knowledgable about the authentic assembly, markings and originality of these prized possessions. And.....on top of that between him and his 3 sons and 5 granchildren, they own 19 differing 55,56,57 autos that they have redone in all kinds of differing states. Robert BTW is a sharp 85 years old! I really enjoyed talking with him. I learn something from every conversation.

Since you seem to be impressed with builders and numbers, I went there too. The other builders/chassis guys that I contacted, including two nationally reknown award winning types (ex racers too), I counted at least 415 tri-years (their numbers.....I'm only the statistician) between them in some kind of fashion.....a good data base in my opinion. Between the group, I also counted over 125 years of experience with building cars. I even checked with a friend of mine that used to build race cars for Jeff Gordon and since is building chassis and frames exclusively for rods and customs, since you seem to trust racing types.....so many of their opinions are heard as well.

I simply put this question to them first. "How much positive caster can you SAFELY get out of a stock 57 chassis set-up?" The overwhelming answer was "It really varies from frame to frame and stance of the car. You can stick a lot of spacers in and get a couple of degrees, but the upper A frame runs into the frame and even though you can risk putting more spacers in, in some cases(taking from the front...adding to the back, etc)this runs into a negative camber situation usually .........and moreover, it is a flimsey set-up and you can even over stress the mounting bolts." Most agreed that 1 degree positve was safe if space allowed, some didn't even see that before running the upper A frame into the frame (much like my own experience) in the front or have camber problems with doing the spacer shuffle. Nearly everyone I talked to yesterday commented that running the upper A frames way out on the frame bolts was risky business and some reported problems with holding alignment....especially with big blocks installed. I did talk to one guy that said the he could get 3 degrees SOMETIMES, but didn't like all the spacers and didn't trust the modification to the frame/arms, he always built differing upper A arms (the product you claim there is no need for)with caster built in. "Too many spacers makes the whole stack unstable...there is no pyramid of force distribution with a stack", was the comment by all. All of them acknowledged that they have run into sagging frames as well and according to 2 of the guys...it's one in every 3 that has some sort of problems, which I am surprised at frankly, and this is something for everyone to watch and have knowledge of.

In-so-far as the product that you say you don't see the need for .....people are buying them like pancakes, so we are producing them (the original designer has past and current racing products today) will continue to produce this product for CCI and even more vendors. And morever, since you have opined that there is no need for it I am forced to defend the product and application here (please don't take it personally......this is just business)......I have more products out there and coming to this very site.....

In-so-far as Classic Chevrolet being just distributors...you are correct about that, but I don't discount there technical expertise just because they are not your favored builder/chassis guys. I have seen good things from them and they have a tremendous amount of information and experience with a huge data base of products,people and moreover problem solving. Maybe they haven't been in business as long as you have, but it's quality and not quantity that counts in my opinion, and I am not discouting your experiences on ioda.

You say that this (your last post) isn't bashing, but your flip comments about the Goodguys name behind my name and any association with HOT ROD tells me different. Your actions speak louder than your words. I am not in any way associated with HOt Rod and the way I take it is that you have some deep-seaded bias against Goodguys, so I am prejudged and cursed already by your standardsor whatever. I think you would call that back-handed bashing to say the least. These are the only two explanations there are for the comment.....I am open and all ears to your rebuttal and if there is a positive explanation with regard to this comment, I will humbly apologise, but I am forced to defend the Goodguys name as well (nothing personal.....just business). You may stand by your word about HotRod, but you may be standing in a sparce crowd. I have seen mistakes in every publication, and every web site that I visit. But, I just don't discount them for everything they espouse. Your first post here contained a big one, (mistake that is..50/50% coolant is the best cooling mixture) but I didn't discount, or do I now, your other posts just because of belief in this myth, in your own words.....a rookie mistake. I have seen some interesting and quite informative information from your posts...so don't stop.

So, my final answer here Regis, is that I am willing to admit that you probably can get more caster than I originally stated (I stand corrected) by your methods and means and modifications (and of course you can get more caster by lowering (modifying) the rearend or stance), but, in my book and by my resources the upper A arms need to be at 3.5 degrees with the tradition 605 box and getting that by just adding shims may be anywhere from non-existent, iffy, tricky and unsafe to do in MY opinion and the opinion of a few more. But I know you disagree, and that's fine. The factory engineer says that the very same thing by the way...he has a modified upper a arm in every power steering car just for that reason. He even suggests as much as 5 degrees positive (don't try this with no power) and my engineer says that too. It just drives better. There is NO way that you can get 5 degrees SAFELY in caster without mods to the upper A frames with the stock set-ups. So, I am back to square one with alot more information on this from both sides....that's good.

Once again 37NASH, I am forced to defend an opinion, engineering solution, a product, some good references/people and an organization....you left me no choice. Please don't take this personally...it's strictly business and learning for all, in your words. I still am interested in what you have to say regardless.

So, I guess we are at a standoff here....we report....let the audience decide where they want to go with this.
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Steve Jack
SOUTHEASTERN GOODGUYS REP

Well i am gettin yah there Steve LOL. your quote"The tri-year chevrolets is a perfect example and they had NO caster adjustment per se" Than it was "the most i can get 1/2 degree" now i think i have you close to 3 degrees.I noticed your car is rather high in the back,go put the gauges on it(yourself not some phone engineer) and lower the rear just alittle .Do you really know how much 1 degree is? Hey before you went on your wild phone mission,did you THINK to maybe ask me how i do it.NO! Just some dumb new guy i will show him.My comment about you being with the goodguys(and i go to alot of there shows and am very good friends with are local rep)was i understand why you could never say anything bad in public about ANY product or person. I know you dont get much for workin for them soooo......that was not a dis.Damn you must have been a trial lawyer ,too much of a book to read on my lunch break.(kidding you again) I will answer one more of your OT questions than i just dont think its fair to hammer at each other in public(i aint afraid if you want to carry this on but this was about a nice roadster)Your idea of a 20/50 mix is great if you live in few states around you.Around here it would be flat wrong for my customer as someone would forget and it would be crack city. Sooo...... there you have it my friend,time to get back to work.Hands on stuff ,no phones ;) If you would like to kick this around more e-amil me as i dont think everybody here wants to see us kick each other around.Heck maybe they do. What do yah think guys? Phat

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If you have to trailer it, leave it home!

USE THE PHONE, I THINK HE CAN OUT TYPE YOU.

I'm still tring to figure out if the camber adjustment will change the height. It was 3 3/4" than 4 3/4" after I changed it to get me to the Des Moines Show on the old tires. I haven't checked it since I took it to the alignment shop. Sometimes I'm off an inch (boards come up a little short) so I will remeasure. Write on guys. I can read faster than you type.....
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Mike J

Hey 37NASH,......I still can't get anything but 1/2 degree and 3 degrees is atypical......but the fact that I have my rear in the air is a mitigating factor in this. But, I want it there.....I don't want to lower it....that's the way we ran them in the 60s Even at the stock height I can't get but a degree at most.

I don't consider you dumb at all. In fact, you have taught me a great deal just kick'in around this subject. The Goodguys thing is as far from the truth as you can get with me anywho. Just ask around the Goodguys staff.....they know I calls em like I sees em!

Now you have really insulted me.......A TRIAL LAWYER!.....give me a break. Actually, I am an engineer by education and a marketing and engineering specialist by night.

The 50/50 thing is good for any location as long as it gets hot during the summer and you are having heat dissipation problems.....but better check the freezing protection when the leaves are falling tho.....

Okay........I quit......and outta here......
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Steve Jack
SOUTHEASTERN GOODGUYS REP

37NASH.....I like the "no trailer" attitude and when we meet......I'll buy the beer!
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Steve Jack
SOUTHEASTERN GOODGUYS REP

hey jack, do you have callous`s on your fingers?..he he..i checked with a couple of older friends of mine(over 63) no offense to anyone here over that age and most of them don`t know the exact specs but 3 of them agreed with jack..now i don`t have a dog in this fight..but as said here before everyone is entitled to there opinion..jack you don`t have to prove anything as far as i`m concerned..not worth arguing over......ok i`m done...ok who`s turn to buy?.....pat

rod on...

I thought trial lawer might get yah jack LOL. Little marine yah just aint asked the right guy yet (heck my dads 70 and could not believe how simple a fix it was).It aint a secret either but it pretty striaght forward.Just a copy of something Moog has made for years.Found it racin stuff that we could not use tube uppers or modeify the control arm.Think about it!!! It will come to yah if you have any hands on frontend exp. MikeJ the camber will have very little affect on ride height(unless you go from 8 degrees to 0 and have some really wide front sneaker LOL)some but not alot. jack i will get the first round,your hands must be all beat up from all that typing LOL dont want you to drop your wallet. ; ) beer time!!
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If you have to trailer it, leave it home!

ok..guys..are we done with the back -n- forth?...now can we move on with a new subject..like..who wants to buy my gauges...i need $$$ to start on my rod again.....pat

You are correct. I moved the camber adjustment about an inch to get it to -3. I guess that was why to tires were wearing so fast. It is on a 35 chevy master coupe. Mustang 2. With a 454.
My lower control arms are not level. They angle up. I'm guessing that the coil springs are not heavy enough. Would this be correct?
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Mike J

mikeJ by angled up do you mean the outside lower balljoint is higher than the inner bolt on the a-frame? If so did any one cut the coils? Also anytime you change the camber or castor you MUST reset the toe.No matter how little a change you make.The lower control arms have to be even on the bottom.Check it out and post back. If you need to set the camber at home you can get it close with a carpenters level with a magnetic Protractor part#9 39840 from sears(just dont use the tire bulge and make sure you have straight rims) just get as close to 0 as you can then set the toe with a tape measure.Now go to a good race shop and hang over them and watch what they do.Some of these so called experts use really expensive alignment machines and than to change things they use the air jack to raise the chassis to loosen bolts .Guess what now you have to take the car off the rack and roll it around and put it back on cause everything changes after you lift it.So watch for that.Even a good guy will know to roll the car back and forth to set the toe(maybe even boonce the bumper a couple times.) Post back if yah need more help. I wont STEER yah wrong.(that was a joke) LOL Phat
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If you have to trailer it, leave it home!

Phats, Thanks for the info. I believe the coils are for a sb ford and yes the ball joint is higher than the mounting bolt. I was thinking that if I get the right springs in than I would need a drop spindle. Is this correct?
So if I jack the car up until the lower control arm is level than I can tell what I need for a spindle. Is this correct?
Right now the shocks bottom out occasionaly. My list of to do's this winter is getting long.
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Mike J

Yes mikej you are correct .The a-frames level than go look for spindles to get your ride height were you want.Just be sure the spring aint cut though,cause cut coils will be of a diff rate .When you have them out check the height and then check the height of new ones .Most times stock springs dont ride that low even with a big bock cause the motor on a stangII was hangin way forward of the center line of the axle.hard to explain. But have the parts store get you v-6 springs first and check the heights(you dont need to buy them from the rod shops like us,we get them from the parts places and rate them our selves). Just a little side note also check the tierods when you have the lower a- frames level and make sure they are pretty close to level.(thats what causes big bump steer if its off)remember any change at all reset the toe. Good Luck hope i did not screw yah up , not to good with words. Phat
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If you have to trailer it, leave it home!

Is neg. camber when the top of the tire is tipped in or out? I just had my car aligned and they set it at -3/4.
The car had new tires on it when I bought it. They wore realy bad on the in side with only a couple thousand miles. What I think they did was to lower the stance of the car with the camber adjustment. I need drop spindles now.
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Mike J

MikeJ, first I agree with 37 Nash about the tri five stuff. I own one and put 2 degrees +caster in it and 1/2+camber right side, 3/4 +camber left side. Camber pulls most positive, caster pulls most negative. This is done to compensate for road crown. Positive camber is tipped out, negative camber is tipped in. Mike I would be looking at the amount of negative camber as well as the amount of toe-out. Too much toe-out will tear up a set of tires in no time at all.
Rochie

neg camber is when the top of the tire is tipped in toward the motor(Unless its a corvair or old bettle LOL).You cant lower the car with camber.But when you lower a car with cut coils or ? the camber changes,its called camber curve.Thats why you see all those silly imports with the tires hangin out with the top of the tire tipped in. -3/4 is too much i would think on anything but a indy car or circle car.What kind of car is it??
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If you have to trailer it, leave it home!

The toe was set at 1/8 toe in. The car drives pretty good right now but will be checking for tire waer before I replace the tires. I may have to take it back for a little touch up. We didn't know for sure where to start so he went with the -3/4.
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Mike J

Mike if you're going back to the alignment shop have them set the camber to as close to 0 or 1/2 positive degrees as possible, allowing some (1/4...1/2 degree ) for road crown. If the car runs down the road straight now and doesn't wander leave the caster where it's at. With 1/8th toe-in your tire wear should be a thing of the past.
Rochie

I dont know if you have a beam axle or a TCI or mustangII. What i do know is i judge how much camber i put in a car(other than straight axles) by what ratio the upper a-frames to the lower a-frames are.If you are running real short uppers compared to the lower i tend to go for 0 because as you turn the car wants to roll up on that side and add camber quick(just the oppisite on the other side) If you have pretty close to even a- frames(upper and lower) you need to put 1/2 of neg camber in so your not running on the outside of the tire on turn in.This is not the same on all cars ,thats why it would be really hard for some one to be correct here.Go to a race shop, NOT a fab shop.Your local garage is only going to take a guess and most lickly never get it right.Its sorta like some of the guys that sell front ends telling you how to weld the clip or crossmember in,they have no idea how much chassis rake so some times you cant get the castor without some work. I have to cut out frontends all the time to correct factory mistakes.Woww i bet everone is confused now! LOL
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If you have to trailer it, leave it home!

First off Dooce you have your terms a little screwed up.There is no way in hell there is 6 degrees of camber in your car.LOL If it had 6 degrees of camber the tops of the front tires would be tipped in like a short track car and it would only be riding on the inside edge of the tires.I think you meant castor.Now the more castor you put in your car the harder its gonna be to turn(6 degrees is about right for a power steering car.)Castor is how far the spindle is tipped back.You only want to use as much castor as needed to keep the car stable at speed,NO wandering. The king pin will look like this from the side / . You need to disconect the sterring arm at the axle and try turning it.Is it hard to turn ?Time to check the box.Now jack it up with out the box hoooked up.Is it hard to turn? You have to diconect the tierods now and see how tight the king pins are.If all that turns out well next step is to shorten the pitman arm on the steering box.But beware it will take some turning raduis out if your not up against the stops on the axle.This should only be done 1 inch at a time and by a excell weldor(have it maged after it right) Hope this helps a little but i know its a little confussing.Over 50% of my bussiness is correcting so called name brand front end kits.You can also tkae castor out by raising the rear of the car,now i bet your really confused .But everything you do affects frontend geom. Post back if yah need more help. I also toe that type of frontend out allmost 3/16 but thats personal choice.Nice ride man.!!! Phat
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If you have to trailer it, leave it home!

Hi 37 Nash, You say to toeout that type of frontend 3/16". Why is that? I thought all front ends were toed in, so forward movement would pull everything straight. I'm not questioning your experence, I would just like to understand. Thanks, HonestFrank
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"VEO DINDICE"

I thought "pushed" front ends (rear drive) had a tendioncy to toe out, there for you adjust the toe in, and "pulled" fronts (front wheel drive) tend to toe in so you adjust them out. If you want to change caster from pos. to neg. could you adjust by the hairpins or 4 bar? Dave
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Life's too short to drive an ughly car!

Just a little help with frontends(if you know this great but it does help a little) On a beam axle the only way to change camber is to bend the axle.Radial tires we put just @ 1/2 degree in(tipped in at the top).If your still using byis ply tires 0 is great.Castor we try on non power steering cars to use the least amount that will not let the car wander and high speed(3-6 degrees)Power steering cars i put the castor right to it,it just feels comfortable to me.Toe in or toe out is done with the tie rods.I really think my thinking on a roadster is i like the front toed out cause i dont want the nose to pin it self in more on a corner,that will cause the ass to come around easyer like in the rain(plus it feels better to me toed out)toed out a bit and the wheels seem to follow the road a bit better and maybe give it a little bit of akerman steering(both wheels dont turn the same degree)This is real hard to explain in a post. But back to the hard steering ,a shorter pitman arm will make it steer easyer(but loose some raduis) Does any of this make since or do i just sound dum.LOL And yes if the hairpins or 4 bar have adjust ments you can set castor that way.Just make sure thet are both even or you pull the axle of center line.
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If you have to trailer it, leave it home!

Hi Nash, I think i understand, Thanks for all the info. Regards,HonestFrank
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"VEO DINDICE"